tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post2018277796356866631..comments2024-03-25T22:48:31.750-04:00Comments on Dreams in the Lich House: Orcs Really Are People, Too, NowJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-77492954066356381252022-01-02T22:08:20.916-05:002022-01-02T22:08:20.916-05:00They did actually. In both cases. A simple Google ...They did actually. In both cases. A simple Google search will tell you this.Ryan B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10283650611515065998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-6081598896002130592020-07-13T18:06:13.973-04:002020-07-13T18:06:13.973-04:00they always were, Orcs etc were always "peopl...they always were, Orcs etc were always "people" , ever since T&T and RQ, we incorporated other races in our DnD games since 1st Ed ,<br />some even went as far as trt to put them in anthropological terms, lol<br />guess some people including TSR and WOTC were behind the times<br />Wait till boys hear girls play DnD and Traveller, their little heads will popAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047682962237432624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-56426034467340200742020-07-13T10:35:00.798-04:002020-07-13T10:35:00.798-04:00Wikipedia is not always trustworthy but they sugge...Wikipedia is not always trustworthy but they suggest the dark skin comes from myth. <br /><br />"In Norse mythology, Dökkálfar ("Dark Elves") and Ljósálfar ("Light Elves") are two contrasting types of elves; the former dwell within the earth and have a dark complexion, while the latter live in Álfheimr, and are "fairer than the sun to look at"Ruprechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139664977453444000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-25104208597909565092020-07-13T10:28:15.663-04:002020-07-13T10:28:15.663-04:00I don't think German tribes took women and chi...I don't think German tribes took women and children on raids into Roman territory. Norse never took women and children along on Viking raids. It's only as problematic as the GM decides to make it.Ruprechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139664977453444000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-81225057710604779312020-07-08T23:09:36.222-04:002020-07-08T23:09:36.222-04:00I don't instantly look at Drow as being a raci...I don't instantly look at Drow as being a racist depection, largely because, despite the skin colour, they are not otherwise portrayed as having the sorts of characteristics that were used to denigrate people of colour. They are smarter than humans and don't get described as primitive, ignorant, cannibalistic, or having poor hygiene, for example.<br /><br />On the other hand, they fall into the "women with power hate and try to subjugate men" trope, and the women always seem to be depicted with fanservice in mind. So I think they are more sexist than racist in their depiction. Beorichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05179135838206052198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-66106563716191388242020-07-08T22:56:31.169-04:002020-07-08T22:56:31.169-04:00I love Eberron for this, among many other, reasons...I love Eberron for this, among many other, reasons. But the books are hit and miss, not all of the writers really got it. A good introduction would be the unofficial Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron (although the Eberron Campaign Setting is decent too, and cheaper), followed by chewing through Keith Baker's website.Beorichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05179135838206052198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-28774394788518494272020-07-08T21:44:34.806-04:002020-07-08T21:44:34.806-04:00I would have preferred Wizard created a game world...I would have preferred Wizard created a game world with a number of black kingdoms, and they can help fight against the Orc hordes.Ruprechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139664977453444000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-24855379040122896892020-07-04T19:58:32.170-04:002020-07-04T19:58:32.170-04:00Orcs aren't even strictly Chaotic in the OD&am...Orcs aren't even strictly Chaotic in the OD&D rules, as they are listed in both the Neutrality and Chaos lists in Men & Magic (OD&D Vol 1). Ogres and Chimerae as well. In the first supplement, Greyhawk, we also see the same duality for Bugbears, Beholders, Will O'Wisps and even Liches...!Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-925365586217855192020-07-03T00:10:06.989-04:002020-07-03T00:10:06.989-04:00Even Tolkien regretted how he wrote Orcs in his la...Even Tolkien regretted how he wrote Orcs in his later life. The guy was very much writing from a strongly Catholic perspective and he disliked that he had cast a people as being fully evil from birth, after all such a concept is inimitable to the concept of salvation.<br /><br />You can kind of see how inherently evil orcs sort of wormed its way into his mythos. Most of the servants of evil fall to it from their failings. Morgoth and Sauron may be corrupting influences, but ultimately they prey on the weaknesses already in their victims. But Orcs are more or less an evolution of the Goblins that Tolkien wrote for the Hobbit, a story that was ultimately supposed to be a relatively straightforward story for his children. One would imagine if Tolkien had not started with Goblins as an assumed part of the mythos he might have stuck with his enemies being more consistently fallen to their own failings. (Such as the Nazghul)Ravianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08263949601266816697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-60751910917051580652020-06-30T19:50:01.304-04:002020-06-30T19:50:01.304-04:00I assure you my imaginary orcs aren't people. ...I assure you my imaginary orcs aren't people. When I want games that involve people treating other people poorly I've got no problem having the imaginary people being people. JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-2298205210846639532020-06-29T19:07:21.536-04:002020-06-29T19:07:21.536-04:00The easiest solution, and the one I'm aligning...The easiest solution, and the one I'm aligning behind, is to treat the humanoid cultures like villanous human cultures. Becoming bandits, cultists, or rampaging marauders of Gruumsh is a "career choice" like becoming a viking. The other approach, like you said, is "monstrify" them further and try and take them out of that humanoid monster type - that's a harder road to pave.<br /><br />The timing of Wizards' announcement is related to corporations updating their public positions on matters of race, but the impetus is player preferences have changed and this happens to be a fortuitous time to make a broad announcement. It's crappy that people want to make this about left vs right politics and not recognize the demographics and preferences of players are the thing that changed. (I blame video games, damn kids and their video games. It's always video game's fault).<br /><br />The Drow are interesting - I never looked at them in racial terms until that cringe-worthy Queen of the Demonweb Pits compilation made them look like black people in skimpy outfits. I like the modern approach of depicting Drow as pale or purple hued villains and let's get back to gaming. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-34850428194696127532020-06-29T16:40:13.721-04:002020-06-29T16:40:13.721-04:00People are really polarized about this. I got told...People are really polarized about this. I got told I should go a KKK rally because I suggested that "orc rights" was an odd hill to die on, compared to all the real life injustice currently pervading our society.<br /><br />I actually prefer orcs to be monstrous because I don't like the "moral dilemma" of the whole Gygaxian "women and children orcs" thing. I don't like the undertones of "green-skinned savages" that have actual society and families. I don't think it adds anything to the game. But now it seems to be viewed by some as racist or problematic to have any sentient creature described as inherently monstrous.<br /><br />Maybe the solution is to make certain creatures (like gnolls?) fiends instead of humanoids. But is that enough? Where does it end? Is it still problematic to portray mind flayers and vampires as irredeemably evil?<br /><br />I am in 100% favor of the changes being made to the depiction of the Vistani, because they are transparently based on a real world human culture and the depiction has in the past leaned on real world negative stereotypes. But orcs and drow? I just feel that the real world has enough problems with systemic racism that need to be addressed before we worry about the feelings of fictional species.<br /><br />Maybe this is an age thing. I'm really not that into the whole "monster party" that seems to be somewhat common in modern D&D. This feels to an extent like an effect of that trend, and explains why I see a lot of older players (who tend to play traditional D&D human and demihuman races) don't quite understand what the issue is here.Jesse Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10802754799848483493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-66562605110803586562020-06-29T15:19:18.344-04:002020-06-29T15:19:18.344-04:00Good memory - it was Lord Robilar with his henchma...Good memory - it was Lord Robilar with his henchman Quij, an orc. (Though I do think Robilar was an evil PC, so who knows about Quij).Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-73854379687650958162020-06-29T15:07:23.663-04:002020-06-29T15:07:23.663-04:00This reminds me. I'm sure that I read somewher...This reminds me. I'm sure that I read somewhere that in Gary Gygax's home game one of the PCs acquired an orc hench-person. Which suggests even in the very early days, there was acceptance that orcs might be individuals with free will who weren't uniformly Evil. At least at Gygax's table, if not in the actual rules. That said, I do not recall the source of that recollection, so it might be unsubstantiated.Joseph Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072211027549450948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-18678426625901040532020-06-29T06:58:05.262-04:002020-06-29T06:58:05.262-04:00Knobgobbler, I think you're right this is a ca...Knobgobbler, I think you're right this is a case of the publisher catching up with how a lot of people were already using humanoids in their games. Video games have influenced player preferences more than anything. For instance, although it's been a few years since I played Skyrim, orcs were common characters and NPCs in that game. If they showed up as opponents, it was because of a "career choice" and not biology (ie, orcs that became cultists or bandits). My wife's favorite character was her orc warrior, Dagmar. 1970's gamers discovered orcs through the lens of Tolkien and early D&D; newer gamers have come to D&D with expectations set by a couple decades of immersive video games and orcs as player characters.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-3852476068091891822020-06-28T16:24:16.208-04:002020-06-28T16:24:16.208-04:00Ever since I first encountered D&D I did not g...Ever since I first encountered D&D I did not get along with alignments. I think that was part of my attraction to games like Runequest, where most creatures could be PCs and few were described as unrelentingly 'evil'... except for the broo... <br />Same with Traveller. If scifi doesn't need alignment why does fantasy? <br />If anything, WOTC's move seems to be behind the curve of how people have been actually playing. The only real pushback I've seen from it is coming from RPGPundit's crowd... and if it bothers them it must be on the right track.Timmy Crabcakeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737954661234574830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-41110084092804153602020-06-28T14:51:33.816-04:002020-06-28T14:51:33.816-04:00I run a murder-happy campaign, but I still stick b...I run a murder-happy campaign, but I still stick by this quote, which seems on-topic for this comment thread:<br /><br /><i>Fafhrd retorted, a little hotly, "Killing in a fight isn't murder."<br />Again the Mouser shrugged. "Killing is murder, no matter what nice names you give."<br />- Fritz Leiber, Ill Met in Lankhmar</i><br /><br />Fuller quote <a href="https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/2014/03/fafhrd-and-grey-mouser-on-murder.html" rel="nofollow">Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser on Murder</a>.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-65224655763019645732020-06-28T14:48:42.868-04:002020-06-28T14:48:42.868-04:00I've been meaning to take a good look at Eberr...I've been meaning to take a good look at Eberron because of its treatment of religions, sounds like there are good ideas with its use of factions, too.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-39757310843130392042020-06-28T12:23:03.174-04:002020-06-28T12:23:03.174-04:00Well put, John. I've never been in love with s...Well put, John. I've never been in love with strict alignments for monsters.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-84228287794562215722020-06-28T12:08:16.488-04:002020-06-28T12:08:16.488-04:00"Game of Thrones"
Well there's your..."Game of Thrones"<br /><br />Well there's your problem.Sigurdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13030038981063035272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-35847036497630992272020-06-28T09:24:09.397-04:002020-06-28T09:24:09.397-04:00As someone that's been playing Eberron for a l...As someone that's been playing Eberron for a long time it's really easy to switch from racial factions to ideological/national/commercial factions. <br /><br />Plus removing the whole "evil babies" thing is GREAT. Nobody likes trying to decide whether to burn the goblin village to the ground. Now you can show mercy to noncombatants! Much more heroicsusanbrindlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04322161727860295916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-38784418170648128512020-06-28T09:04:30.906-04:002020-06-28T09:04:30.906-04:00No I'm pretty sure GoT's knights were horr...No I'm pretty sure GoT's knights were horrible. susanbrindlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04322161727860295916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-53114994144118635992020-06-28T08:02:10.690-04:002020-06-28T08:02:10.690-04:00I don't know. That seems overly simplistic. I ...I don't know. That seems overly simplistic. I loved the heck out LotR growing up, but Tolkien's depictions are problematic by today's standards. We should not ignore that some fascist groups have apparently embraced LotR for the wrong reasons. <br /><br />To give Tolkien the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was not intending to be racist... I think that means accepting that were Tolkien alive and writing the books today, then he should choose to write them differently.Joseph Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072211027549450948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-66202664943135065982020-06-28T01:08:50.327-04:002020-06-28T01:08:50.327-04:00"horrible western knights"
Misspelled &..."horrible western knights"<br /><br />Misspelled "honorable" there<br /><br />"My youngest son is adopted, a proud African American 13 year old kiddo"<br /><br />OF COURSE! <br />Sigurdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13030038981063035272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-80659395893265219052020-06-27T22:47:54.682-04:002020-06-27T22:47:54.682-04:00Personally, It seems like a meaningless gesture. M...Personally, It seems like a meaningless gesture. Most tables never portray orcs as Always Chaotic Evil anyway. Personally, I don't even use orcs (they are very tacky). WOTC could've very easily quietly changed it, and no one would raise an eyebrow. If they are making a big statement about it, it's really only for publicity.<br />As well, with regards orcs in general, Tolkien never meant orcs to be black people. If anything, he meant them to be dogmatic nationalists like the Nazis. It was the works derived from Tolkien who made orcs into a race allegory, and then liberal authors tried to use orcs to make a counterpoint allegory about how racism is bad. But as we all know, race allegories generally suck because there (normally) actually *is* something different between orcs and humans, where there is really no difference between one human and another. It's the "Detroit: Become Human" problem, or more accurately the "Bright" problem.<br />Pilgrim Processionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04246889904411128383noreply@blogger.com