tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post5410118156321538416..comments2024-03-25T22:48:31.750-04:00Comments on Dreams in the Lich House: The 1970's Sandbox as a Post-Modern ExperienceJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-1134123235962500982012-01-12T08:14:55.215-05:002012-01-12T08:14:55.215-05:00I'm not sure who originated it, but I have a b...I'm not sure who originated it, but I have a bookmark to a (now vanished) post on the old Aldeboran blog with that title. So, you might ask Stefan Poag.<br /><br />That said, your variation, frezdc, seems to be a pretty good one.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-68115602969121616662012-01-12T02:15:54.384-05:002012-01-12T02:15:54.384-05:00I agree, whenever I read "we explore dungeons...I agree, whenever I read "we explore dungeons, not characters" it comes off to me as sort of shortsighted? I can't quite think of the right term at the moment, anyway, I really agree that exploring the environment and dealing with all its challenges you are exploring the character in a way. The longer the character lasts the more you have invested (at least in most cases) and the more you can make decisions based on how your character has acted previously (heavily tinged by the players own perceptions of course). So yeah by exploring dungeons you are exploring characters, retrospectively of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-34275470376575794522012-01-11T18:17:33.411-05:002012-01-11T18:17:33.411-05:00@Wraith: 5X5 planning is a different approach tha...@Wraith: 5X5 planning is a different approach than the linear series of encounters inherent to the 5-room dungeon. 5x5 is designed to create plot hooks between distant locations - it can be a useful tool for brainstorming how information is connected.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-16248773724922626372012-01-11T17:54:46.746-05:002012-01-11T17:54:46.746-05:00Telecanter hit on my objections to the 5-room dung...Telecanter hit on my objections to the 5-room dungeon - it presupposes a sequence of events (regardless of whether it's 5 actual dungeon rooms or just 5 encounters), assuming the DM knows best when will be the "climax" and what is the plot. Is anything more railroady then laying this out:<br /><br />Room 1: Entrance And Guardian<br />Room 2: Puzzle Or Roleplaying Challenge<br />Room 3: Red Herring<br />Room 4: Climax, Big Battle Or Conflict<br />Room 5: Plot Twist <br /><br />I'm Julie, Your Cruise Director... right this way, adventurers. After our big climactic fight experience, we're off to see next week's Plot Twist. Bon Voyage!<br /><br />There's an argument on the other side that lauds the virtues of structure and a reproducible experience - hey, formulas work for sitcoms, and it can work for you too! - but I'm not on board that ship anymore.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-59253531642866957432012-01-11T17:11:13.327-05:002012-01-11T17:11:13.327-05:00I'm not sure who coined the phrase "We ex...I'm not sure who coined the phrase "We explore dungeons, not characters". I've got a better one for you: "By exploring dungeons, we inadvertanly explore characters".frezdchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17088317603635142015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-82934831027882417272012-01-11T15:37:19.843-05:002012-01-11T15:37:19.843-05:00Yes. I was just talking with someone (don't r...Yes. I was just talking with someone (don't remember why) about how our lives are not stories and when someone like Steve Jobs dies, you have to comb back through the events of their life organizing and making something out of it, some kind of sense arc.<br /><br />Most people don't think about this and thus think that to make a story happen in a game you decide what it's going to be first and then walk everyone through it.<br /><br />@C and Wrath: The 5 room dungeon is the exact opposite of what he's talking about. You decide what players are going to experience beforehand and in what order. Say, the second room is a trick and that's what's going to happen no matter what the players do. I can't think of a more boring play experience than having to walk through someone else's story.<br /><br />I do use a shorthand I learned from Trent Foster to design my dungeons : 2 combats encounters, 1 way too powerful possible combat encounter, one puzzle, etc. The difference is these are scattered about a map with signs and clues, players can make decisions about which to engage in what order or miss some entirely.Telecanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238356788092725244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-69468775329223748852012-01-11T11:50:37.015-05:002012-01-11T11:50:37.015-05:00oh, I meant to say, great post - very interesting ...oh, I meant to say, great post - very interesting reading back to back with hack n slash's latest railroad vs sandbox post.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-22633607950714327022012-01-11T11:48:58.023-05:002012-01-11T11:48:58.023-05:00But this is modernism! It's how history has al...But this is modernism! It's how history has always been written. <br />There's a great little essay - The Historian and his Facts" by the ever-readable E H Carr (1961) that I think perfectly captures what you're talking about - should be available for free somewhere... I'm on a phone now or I'd look it up myself.richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-22571030941411264412012-01-11T09:42:47.707-05:002012-01-11T09:42:47.707-05:00Good post. I'm curious what you don't lik...Good post. I'm curious what you don't like about the five room dungeon, especially since you mention it but don't clarify your distaste. <br /><br />Personally I've used it for spur of the moment dungeon discoveries or if I don't have much time to create a dungeon to great effect. You can have a 10 or 15 room dungeon with the same philosophy (which I've also done). Johnn Four was the one who came up with the 5 Room dungeon I believe, and I know that Dave the Game did the 5x5 Method for adventure making which also (although much more story driven) has viability to a sandbox as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-31782667265046014452012-01-11T09:32:01.288-05:002012-01-11T09:32:01.288-05:00Uh, the five room dungeon is useful even in sandbo...Uh, the five room dungeon is useful even in sandbox play, regarding pacing and area structure. <br /><br />It's shorthand for activity rotation.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-59333866875672819752012-01-11T08:56:32.948-05:002012-01-11T08:56:32.948-05:00I agree with your issue with the term emergent sto...I agree with your issue with the term emergent story - that it implies an actual story and not an external structure superimposed on events. It's just replacing it with something more accurate, yet also terse and pithy, will be a challenge.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031181424520125213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4353391426294254427.post-21874512791469415432012-01-11T08:39:45.457-05:002012-01-11T08:39:45.457-05:00While I agree with your support of this style of p...While I agree with your support of this style of play, I'm not sure "emegent stories" is the best term for what goes in play in a traditional/sandbox style. You liken it to real life--and I think that's the exactly the right comparison--but story doesn't emerge full formed from either experience. <br /><br />As you correctly point out, we make narrative from real life through re-conceptualization (editing and contextualizing). There is no story there at any point--only events. The story is superimposed later. It may begin to be super-imposed almost immediately after the events occur, but its still an individual contextualization, not an intrinsic property emerging fully formed from the events. It's no more emergent than a sculpture is from a block of marble, really. Maybe I'm being too strict/formal on the use of the term emergent, though. <br /><br />Anyway, another strength I'd point out here is that, within certain parameters, all the players can experience a slightly different story (wherein, perhaps, they were the most important player) rather than an enforced story that is less ambiguous.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.com