Context: A gigantic, multi-level dungeon, where dungeon level = monster level.
Problem: Why do creatures of the same relative power level congregate on the same dungeon level?
Answer: The dungeon represents an estuary, a confluence of diametric forces - Chaos and Law. The very deepest sections of the dungeon open upon otherworldly vistas and allow the forces of Chaos to bleed into the world; the surface bathes in the light of the sun, the ultimate symbol of Law. The dungeon is a brackish mix of diminishing Law and increasing Chaos the deeper it extends.
The powerful magical monsters and creatures of Chaos can only freely exist in the depths of the dungeon, closer to the source of ultimate Chaos. Each level they ascend brings them closer to Law and increases their discomfort; at most, such creatures will normally be found a maximum of 1-2 dungeon levels above their normal encounter level, returning to the depths at the first opportunity.
Likewise, the increasing power level of the denizens of the dungeon depths places a limit on how deep surface dwellers can penetrate the dungeon depths before the danger overwhelms them.
I'm not sure how far I can ride this particular metaphor, but I was looking for a solution as to why orcs live on level 1, and gnolls on level 2, and ogres on level 3, and the ogres sometimes raid level 1 and 2, but have their permanent lairs on level 3, and so on.
This idea that Chaos and Law drives each other away can be taken beyond the dungeon, too. Creatures of Chaos have free reign on the surface during the hours of night, when the withering eye of the sun is hidden away. Chaotic fairy magic melts with the coming dawn, and the undead return to their graveyards and tombs before the first ray of sun.
I keep hearing "Night on Bald Mountain" melting away into "Ave Maria" when I think of it this way, but that's just me. I've seen Disney's Fantasia movies over and over again.
I like this idea.
ReplyDeleteBrilliant! It answers the question of monsters sorted by level, it is plausible, and it is creepy as hell.
ReplyDeleteIt may not be a perfect answer, but I want it to be.
Thanks! One of the mega dungeons kicking around here is "Death Mountain", a Greek-myth-themed dungeon where the bottom is the River Styx, Hades, and the pit of Tartarus. Another is "Harrow Home Manor", where the lowest level holds the Black Cyst - an egg holding the embryonic form of a godling from the antimatter universe.
ReplyDeleteIt's impossible for me to completely avoid rationalism so I need to at least develop rational magical explanations for why the world conforms to the game logic.
This fits right in with Philotomy's musings on the mythic underworld and its structure, so you're in good company, at least.
ReplyDeleteI want to add that this also fits with my campaign world's conceit that dungeon traps can improve in level based on being fed, so the malevolent almost alive dungeon fits with the further down the less like the surface world things get, which also fits into the world being built on the dead/not-dead remains of the last world's gods.
ReplyDeleteIsn't this how Diablo unfolded?
ReplyDeleteAwesome concept. I remembered reading about another explication of the Chaos/Deep and Law/Sun elsewhere so thought I'd search for it and link it here to maybe further the conversation. Quick trip to the OSR Search utility and lo and behold! I read it here! Some nice ideas in the comments of the earlier thread, particularly the relationship of the core of the earth to the sun. http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-quotable-cosmology.html
ReplyDeleteThat one's really good - it's always been kicking around in the back of my head. Re-reading it, the explanation of danger levels and treasure levels is all right in that earlier post; previously I think I focused more on the interesting explanations for Elves and Dwarves. P&P is a genius. I'm on board the Chaos Dungeon bandwagon.
DeleteA Quotable Cosmology
Well done! A prime explanation of 'Holmesian Unnaturalism'!
ReplyDeleteI like your thinking and think this fits nicely into "dungeon of mythic underworld" and sprinkles in some monomyth. Also, I think there is an aspect of real estate practicality regarding where monsters live. Closer to the surface is more dangerous - it puts the monsters closer to sunlight and enemies (Men, forces of Law, adventurers). The more powerful monsters push the weaker monsters into the more dangerous, less desirable levels closer to the surface.
ReplyDeletei think this makes sense - monsters should be rated according to lv, also beings closer to surface more connected with natural world and more able to interact with it while weird and powerful have more limits as more unatural
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me to the RPGnet forum's setting riff Voices from Below and the Long Stairs, in which is often described that the physical laws change gradually when you go deeper and deeper. Hence, deep level denizens can't survive for long in the upper levels and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting that - I don't pay attention to the big purple, but that is a really awesome thread and just a generally cool idea all around.
DeleteIf I ever get the urge to run a dungeon crawl in the modern world...
I love this concept. I've been pondering whether it would be a good setting for ACKS - Heroic Fantasy.
ReplyDelete> Why do creatures of the same relative power level congregate on the same dungeon level?
ReplyDeleteYour method of explaining this bizzare phenomenon is pretty reasonable. It can explain the reason for this kind of distribution indeed. Stronger Chaos at the bottom, stronger Law at the top.
But your explanation only works for dungeon that is inhabited exclusively by the creatures of Chaos. Because if Law is strongest at the top, then why is there are no Lawful and Neutral high-HD creatures at the top levels? Think about meeting a herd of 1d6 Lawful Unicorns (4HD each). Or 1d4 Lawful Golden Dragons (11HD each). Or 1 Neutral Tyrannosaurus Rex 20 HD. Or 1 Lawful Giant Roc (36 HD), surrounded by a flock of 1d8 Large Rocs (12 HD each). And so on and so forth.
Usually dungeons are inhabited by at least a mix of Chaotic and Neutral creatures - Neutrals inhabitants spiders, snakes, bats, jellies. How could we explain the reason to why HD of Neutrals depends on dungeon level too?
I think is that your explanation could be improved by stating that lowest level of dungeon are more saturated with ambient magic than the higher ones.
> The powerful magical monsters and creatures of ... can only freely exist in the depths of the dungeon, closer to the source of (magic fountain)
So for example we could say that a lowest level of dungeon is situated where few ley lines meet, and as it usually happens with intersection of ley lines, a fountain of magical energy bursts into the earth and into underground caveties.
Or you could say that lowest level of dungeon cleaved a some kind of magical conduit. Perhaps that conduit was an ore vein; or perhaps a it was a gigantic strand of organic nerve that is a part of humongous subterranian creature. Before that magic have flowed through the conduit, but now it pours out - not unlike a stream of blood would pour from a severed artery. Though in a terms of constintency, this magic works not like liquid, but rather like a weightless gas - and it's saturation is closer to the source. To explain why this magic didn't fill the whole world, you can postulate that "particles" of this magic, when exposed to environment outside of their usual conduit, start to degrade in a slow but steady manner: when they start their "life", they are charged with magic, but after a few hours of "life" outside of conduit, the magical charge is absolutely depleted.
Or you can postulate that molten core of planet creates a field of magic. The lower you aproach down under, the stronger the magic gets.
Or you can say that molten magma creates a sort of magical radiation aroud it - so the magic is at it's strongest is where hot lava flows - in the deepest reccesses of planet, or where volcanoes erupt.
Or you can say that wizard created underground fortress for himself - a sort of wizard tower but itstead of going up, it goes down. And then, a few dozen years later, during unlucky experiment, he died as a person but became a fountain of magic himself.
And so on and so forth. I feel there's still a lot of tasty possibilities of exploring this direction of thought with how different magical fountains came to be and why didn't they turn all the world into a place dtacked with Giant Rocs.